Dr Stricker likens Morgellons to Bovine Digital Dermatitus

[tcmgpt13]

SDG, I already know about lyme. That was not what I was asking you about. It was about your 'friends' who evidently are veterinary specialists and how they view the infectious process of Morgellons. Now, I know that Harvey said it was not lyme too, but I wondered if they might, like Stricker does, view Morgellons as another type of spirochete infection which is why I added the brief information about other spirochete type diseases from Wiki. In their case and in Stricker's that would be perhaps a zoonose spirochete. There are some who have studied lyme who evidently feel that other associated parasites may be involved in lyme infections (beyond the commonly identified ones such as babesia). So that was the reason for my questions about the lyme and the vets. We have already had a lot of intelligent discussion about lyme on this forum. I suspect most here are already aware that lyme is most commonly vectored by certain types of ticks though there are other insect suspects out that which may also be spreading these kinds of spirochete infections. Thanks anyway. IMO there is no sense in beating lyme any further with a stick.

quote=scabdraggr;89028]Truthfully,I don't know much about lyme and those that claim they do,don't seem to have it quite figured out just yet.It's obvious to me what M is but I haven't seen or dealt with lyme disease so anuthing from me about lyme is mere conjecture.Sky seems to know more about cattle diseases than anyone else that I communicate with maybe she can elaborate on lyme for us.[/quote]

[jeanlong]

if M is due to a spirochete infection, I can't understand why it is so difficult to isolate the organism. I have been tested for Lyme and some of the common co-infectious spirochete organisms often appearing with Lyme. So far negative on all of these.

But then I see the actual lab test and there is an unending science debate over the band 31 and band 34 for testing, referenced in more than one reference - the most valid science criteria has been hijacked. This points to an anti-science theme that I find bewildering.

Basic Information about Lyme Disease

Lab Tests for Lyme Disease, Tom Grier

In 1994, the Association of State and Territorial Public Health Laboratory Directors, under a CDC grant, decided that there should be consistency between labs reporting Lyme disease Western Blots, and that a specific reporting criteria should be established. The consensus committe, chaired by Dr. Michael Osterholm, Ph.D., MN, set nationwide standards for Western Blot reporting. This sounds good, but one could argue they made a bad situation worse. Prior to the hearing, virtually every lab had accepted bands 22, 23, 25, 31, and 34 kDa as specific and significant, and reported them as positive for exposure to Borrelia burgdorferi. Not only are these bands specific for Borrelia species, but they represent all of the major outer surface proteins being used to develop the Lyme vaccines. The committee, without any clear reasoning, disqualified those bands as even being reportable.

After the consensus meeting, those bands were no longer acceptable. The result was that what had been a fair-to-good test for detecting Lyme disease had now become poor, arguably useless. Many scientists have questioned these new reporting criteria, and several wrote letters of protest to both the committee and to laboratory journals. Many labs stopped reporting the actual bands and instead, simply reported the test as positive or negative, thus preventing any further interpretations. (90)

How badly did the Lab Directors bootstrap this test? The following is an analysis of the new guidelines presented as an abstract and lecture at the 1995 Rheumatology Conference in Texas, chaired by Dr. Alan Steere, MD. (1995 Rheumatology Symposia Abstract #1254, Dr. Paul Fawcett, et al.)

This was a study designed to test the recently proposed changes to Western Blot interpretation by the Second National Conference on Serological Testing for Lyme Disease, sponsored by the CDC. The committee proposed limiting the bands that could be reported in a Western Blot for diagnosis of Lyme disease. Out of a possible 25 bands, 10 specific bands were selected as being reportable. An lgG Western Blot must have five or more of these bands: 18, 21,28, 30, 39, 41,,45, 58, 66 and 93 kDa. An lgM Western Blot must have two or more of the following three bands: 23, 39, 41.

Conspicuously absent are the most important bands, 22, 23, 25, 31, and 34, which include OSPA, OSP-B and OSP-C antigens - the three most widely accepted and recognized Bb antigens. These antigens were the antigens chosen for human vaccine trials. This abstract showed that, under the old criteria, all of 66 pediatric patients with a history of a tick bite and bull's-eye rash who were symptomatic were accepted as positive under the old Western Blot interpretation.

Under the newly proposed criteria, only 20 were now considered positive. (The number of false positives under both criteria was zero percent.) That means 46 children who were all symptomatic would probably be denied treatment! That's a success rate of only 31%.

*Note: A misconception about Western Blots is that they have as many false positives as false negatives. This is not true. False positives based on species specific bands are rare.

The conclusion of the researchers was: "the proposed Western Blot reporting criteria are grossly inadequate, because it excluded 69% of the infected children."

I also am studying the ideas in a library book FOOL ME TWICE. The theme is that the USA was once a world leader but is now in decline due to anti-science themes permeating our government policies. If true, it will degrade our national security and harm our society in the not so long run.

Amazon.com: Fool Me Twice: Fighting the Assault...
has some of the book's highlights. For me a main theme is the idea that the USA government is collectively in denial of many science facts is the point of the book in a nutshell. I like this country, and am born and raised here, USA by birth and upbringing. These ideas are extremely disturbing, but in light of recent the CDC's so-called scientific study of M, I have to think that being in denial is somehow what many in this country finds appealing. I find it makes me feel powerless and un-hopeful about a future in the USA. I can only struggle along and try to find TCM answers for my own health conditions, and help those along my path who are interested in TCM info.

[tcmgpt13]

Well, I think it is probable that money is the issue for saying that fewer people have lyme or any other spirochete infection which might be discovered at a future date. Currently such treatment is viewed as costly and potentially long term treatment. What better way to save money than to deny the existence of a medical condition? Perhaps if low cost and more effective treatments are ever discovered this attitude will change, but I would not count on it. In general though I have noticed a dumbing down of education since the sixties. Those who are not taught the basics of Western civilization tend to lose its values. Actual science is now riddled with faked information. Books are written with no credible references given for information which allows history to be rewritten. Harry has Two Mommies (not a real title) is now considered great literature. Lying and cheating are accepted as normal. The norm. Science is just one more area of civilization being thrown under the bus. Welcome to the modern world. These attitudes are now found everywhere, not just in the US of A as some would have you believe. That premise too (that only the USA is the problem) is an absolute lie.

quote=jeanlong;89047]if M is due to a spirochete infection, I can't understand why it is so difficult to isolate the organism. I have been tested for Lyme and some of the common co-infectious spirochete organisms often appearing with Lyme. So far negative on all of these.

But then I see the actual lab test and there is an unending science debate over the band 31 and band 34 for testing, referenced in more than one reference - the most valid science criteria has been hijacked. This points to an anti-science theme that I find bewildering.

In 1994, the Association of State and Territorial Public Health Laboratory Directors, under a CDC grant, decided that there should be consistency between labs reporting Lyme disease Western Blots, and that a specific reporting criteria should be established. The consensus committe, chaired by Dr. Michael Osterholm, Ph.D., MN, set nationwide standards for Western Blot reporting. This sounds good, but one could argue they made a bad situation worse. Prior to the hearing, virtually every lab had accepted bands 22, 23, 25, 31, and 34 kDa as specific and significant, and reported them as positive for exposure to Borrelia burgdorferi. Not only are these bands specific for Borrelia species, but they represent all of the major outer surface proteins being used to develop the Lyme vaccines. The committee, without any clear reasoning, disqualified those bands as even being reportable.

After the consensus meeting, those bands were no longer acceptable. The result was that what had been a fair-to-good test for detecting Lyme disease had now become poor, arguably useless. Many scientists have questioned these new reporting criteria, and several wrote letters of protest to both the committee and to laboratory journals. Many labs stopped reporting the actual bands and instead, simply reported the test as positive or negative, thus preventing any further interpretations. (90)

How badly did the Lab Directors bootstrap this test? The following is an analysis of the new guidelines presented as an abstract and lecture at the 1995 Rheumatology Conference in Texas, chaired by Dr. Alan Steere, MD. (1995 Rheumatology Symposia Abstract #1254, Dr. Paul Fawcett, et al.)

This was a study designed to test the recently proposed changes to Western Blot interpretation by the Second National Conference on Serological Testing for Lyme Disease, sponsored by the CDC. The committee proposed limiting the bands that could be reported in a Western Blot for diagnosis of Lyme disease. Out of a possible 25 bands, 10 specific bands were selected as being reportable. An lgG Western Blot must have five or more of these bands: 18, 21,28, 30, 39, 41,,45, 58, 66 and 93 kDa. An lgM Western Blot must have two or more of the following three bands: 23, 39, 41.

Conspicuously absent are the most important bands, 22, 23, 25, 31, and 34, which include OSPA, OSP-B and OSP-C antigens - the three most widely accepted and recognized Bb antigens. These antigens were the antigens chosen for human vaccine trials. This abstract showed that, under the old criteria, all of 66 pediatric patients with a history of a tick bite and bull's-eye rash who were symptomatic were accepted as positive under the old Western Blot interpretation.

Under the newly proposed criteria, only 20 were now considered positive. (The number of false positives under both criteria was zero percent.) That means 46 children who were all symptomatic would probably be denied treatment! That's a success rate of only 31%.

*Note: A misconception about Western Blots is that they have as many false positives as false negatives. This is not true. False positives based on species specific bands are rare.

The conclusion of the researchers was: &quot;the proposed Western Blot reporting criteria are grossly inadequate, because it excluded 69% of the infected children.&quot; </i></blockquote>I also am studying the ideas in a library book FOOL ME TWICE. The theme is that the USA was once a world leader but is now in decline due to anti-science themes permeating our government policies. If true, it will degrade our national security and harm our society in the not so long run.

[scabdraggr]

After looking at many m things from our bodies and speaking with others that have done the same there is no evidence or anything of any type that points to a sphirocete bacteria being involved with M.It's quite clear to me what the agent is that causes m and it is not tick related.Total understanding of this agent has not been achieved by me but I'm closing in on many points of concern and mystery about it.I can better elaborate with the aid of my pics.The enviroment is now the main concern for me with so much m material being in it,especially in the forest and inside buildings.I also see evidence that suggests M doesn't manifest the same with all infested sufferers.Many more don't have skin issues than those that do have them.It can be in and damage only one organ or as many as it enters into and stays in to do damage.This scenario allows for the possibility that M is whar's causing our hospitals and healthcare systems to be over stressed with sick people and slow if any improvement happening for the afflicted patient.I often feel and think that a cheap cure for millions of sick people might just be possible and probable.

[posey]

What intrigues me about this study is that I use to dogsit for 2 couples when they went on vacarion. Both of these dogs had their front paws chewed raw from itching. One of the dogs had lumps all over its' body too and had a stinky ear.

I know the study is Bovine but who can say for sure that it can't be other animals as well?

The problem is the too many unknowns about this disease. Speculation is Ok for researchers; they can test their theories. Hopefully they are scoping the net for our thoughts and ideas becauuse I;ve seen many interestin ones.

[jeanlong]

Slovenia, well that sounds good - Where is the clinic and what is its name? Did you have itching and fibers? what is his protocol?

Just finished reading his BDD paper and I guess he believes this cattle disease is caused by a spirochete; and that it is likely it has jumped species to us humans. That seems to be his tone in the paper.

Originally Posted by Slovenia

Stricker is well known in the Lyme community and been specialising in this field for many years. He is also in close contact with a clinic here in Europe that I initially attended - and which cleared up most of my symptoms. Infact I believe most of the protocols the clinic used were his. And they certainly knocked back the disease.

I have read his report and it does seem to make some sense. He has my total respect. I think Dr. Stricker, Prof. Randy Wymore, and Clifford Carnicom are the only brave professionals conducting any serious research - in the whole world.

tcm you might be right, but ideas of solely saving money at the expense of such suffering makes me cringe inside.

Originally Posted by tcmgpt13

Well, I think it is probable that money is the issue for saying that fewer people have lyme or any other spirochete infection which might be discovered at a future date. Currently such treatment is viewed as costly and potentially long term treatment. What better way to save money than to deny the existence of a medical condition?

[Pollyringworm]

Originally Posted by scabdraggr

Truthfully,I don't know much about lyme and those that claim they do,don't seem to have it quite figured out just yet.It's obvious to me what M is but I haven't seen or dealt with lyme disease so anuthing from me about lyme is mere conjecture.Sky seems to know more about cattle diseases than anyone else that I communicate with maybe she can elaborate on lyme for us.

We don't have to have it figured out, we've tested positive for it. Which is something we can't get for the m. One or the other is a coinfection.

[skylark99]

Just to chime in regards this discussion about spirochete and Morgellons.

As some of you already know, my lyme doc was a colleague of the late Dr Wm Harvey.
I SAW the image of what they found in patients blood and can assert that what I saw was not spirochete in shape. In fact it looked more like a nematode -specifically a strongyloides than anything else. Too, I was told that the organism in the image was found in all blood samples of Morgellons patients looked at, and that it was consistently the same in a samples as in the image.

That is not to say that the image I saw was an organism that does not have several shapes and forms over its lifetime, as/like borrellia is known to do when confronted with antibiotics. Perhaps what I saw does have several forms during its life cycle or when exposed to chemical/drugs/environmental variables, and perhaps the image that I saw was only one stage of that organism's life cycle or not exposed to something that would cause it to alter shape to evade a threat.

I also wanted to add that I have not had dental work as some suggest are linked to Morgellons, and know many others with M who also have not.

[tcmgpt13]

Interesting sky. I wish that Harvey and your doctor had posted photos of what they were seeing in the blood of M patients on the internet. Who knows where we might be as far as identification if they had? Multiple photos of what was being seen might have been harder to dismiss. I heard your old doctor is now retired, another loss to the M community.

I think the M parasite infections at the very least resemble strongyloides type infections. If the M nematode is not actually stongyloides stercoralis I think its habits are at least similar to that nematode, especially the fact that it autoinfects (most often) and the fact that it is hard to detect this parasite through testing which might answer the why has no one ever found the mysterious M parasite. The other possible candidate seems to be one of the leishmania parasite varieties although from photos the leishmania lesions appear to be different than M lesions. Still some members have been diagnosed with leishmaniasis among the other infections they might also have.

There is little doubt the Morgellons picture is complicated by toxicity found in the environment which allows disease organisms take hold, flourish and spread. It is now being reported that some marine waters in lagoons around the world are transmitting marine skin diseases to people who bathe in them.

Meanwhile we are all dealing with more and more exposures to the worldwide spread of multiple infectious agents, especially the zoonoses. A brief summary of an article about zoonoses:

Parasitic, fungal and prion zoonoses: An expanding universe of candidates for human disease.

Akritidis N

Head, Internal Medicine Department,&#8232'General Hospital G. Hatzikosta' of Ioannina, Greece.

Zoonotic infections have emerged as a burden for millions of people in recent years, due to re-emerging or novel pathogens often causing outbreaks in the developing world in the presence of inadequate public health infrastructure. Among zoonotic infections, parasitic pathogens are the ones that affect millions of humans worldwide, while furthermore are at risk of developing disease which is often chronic. The present review discusses the global effect of protozoan pathogens as Leishmania sp., Trypanosoma sp., and Toxoplasma sp., as well as helminthic pathogens as Echinococcus sp., Fasciola sp., and Trichinella sp. The zoonotic aspects of agents that are not essentially zoonotic are also discussed. The review further focuses on the zoonotic dynamics of fungal pathogens and prion diseases as observed in recent years, in an evolving environment that has developed novel patient target groups for agents that were previously considered obscure or of minimal significance.

Clinical Microbiology and Infection

Volume 17, Issue 3, pages 331–335, March 2011

quote=skylark99;89143]Just to chime in regards this discussion about spirochete and Morgellons.

As some of you already know, my lyme doc was a colleague of the late Dr Wm Harvey.
I SAW the image of what they found in patients blood and can assert that what I saw was not spirochete in shape. In fact it looked more like a nematode -specifically a strongyloides than anything else. Too, I was told that the organism in the image was found in all blood samples of Morgellons patients looked at, and that it was consistently the same in a samples as in the image.

That is not to say that the image I saw was an organism that does not have several shapes and forms over its lifetime, as/like borrellia is known to do when confronted with antibiotics. Perhaps what I saw does have several forms during its life cycle or when exposed to chemical/drugs/environmental variables, and perhaps the image that I saw was only one stage of that organism's life cycle or not exposed to something that would cause it to alter shape to evade a threat.

I also wanted to add that I have not had dental work as some suggest are linked to Morgellons, and know many others with M who also have not.[/quote]

[jeanlong]

I would like to see photos of the nematode shapes of what was found - do you have any to share?

If M is due to a tiny nematode, that really would explain almost all the symptoms and fit everything that M people are complaining about - as in this M illness could really be to a tiny parasite. The human immune system has some defenses against nematodes, but a nematode goes through a growth cycle and would be very hard to identify through conventional testing partly because the organism would be in different stages during different times of the year.

This makes me wonder if something like oxygenation therapies I've been studying, long used in Germany, Russia and the Ukraine would be a good treatment. These include a number of different methods, including hydrogen peroxide, ozone, UV blood purification and similar methods. Generally the treatments are slightly invasive but nontoxic and ramp up an enormous measurable oxygenation via the bloodstream, increasing both bloodflow and oxygen delivery to the entire body, hugely lowering all types of pathogen loads within 4-12 hours and oxidizing toxic materials too. That frees up the immune system response for other tasks. This parallels the goals of TCM stuff, herbs, acupuncture, qigong methods - - breaking up blood stagnation and increasing the flow of qi always boosts the wei-qi response.

I have been reading a great deal of the science studies regarding oxygenation treatments - it's used quite a bit for a variety of conditions and millions of treatments have been done, but the research is often in Russian or German and not read by USA doctors. I found a few links I'm going to pursue too, in the hopes that I'll understand more and perhaps try one of these types of treatments,

Ozone Therapy, Ozone Saunas, Ozone Courses

Originally Posted by skylark99

Just to chime in regards this discussion about spirochete and Morgellons.

As some of you already know, my lyme doc was a colleague of the late Dr Wm Harvey.
I SAW the image of what they found in patients blood and can assert that what I saw was not spirochete in shape. In fact it looked more like a nematode -specifically a strongyloides than anything else. Too, I was told that the organism in the image was found in all blood samples of Morgellons patients looked at, and that it was consistently the same in a samples as in the image.

That is not to say that the image I saw was an organism that does not have several shapes and forms over its lifetime, as/like borrellia is known to do when confronted with antibiotics. Perhaps what I saw does have several forms during its life cycle or when exposed to chemical/drugs/environmental variables, and perhaps the image that I saw was only one stage of that organism's life cycle or not exposed to something that would cause it to alter shape to evade a threat.

I also wanted to add that I have not had dental work as some suggest are linked to Morgellons, and know many others with M who also have not.