Service in Middle East

[MilitaryguyfromMs]

I had a quick question about symptoms etc. I have served two tours in the Middle East. I have been having chronic skin "outbreaks" since the first tour. Once they start, they spread and get much worse. They are often on my face or in hair (I dont shave it but it's cut very close). They spread down my hips and legs and go from there. They leave hard purple looking scars afterwards. (not like a pimple or Folliculitis etc) My docs put me on minocycline or tetracycline daily which doesn't contain outbreaks but may lessen the frequency.

Since being back, my children have been experiencing similar outbreaks, namely in their hair and hips. (I try to disenfect the shower etc after use, but told them to use the other shower if possible) (I also do hibiclens or bleach baths to help dry them up)

I just recently ran accross some information on this disease. It's very odd because I have seen several long thin "hair-like" fibers sticking out of my skin. (Don't ask a medic or they will think you are overly stressed...)

Is there any link to that region or Service etc?

Just as a side note, I'm not asking from the military etc, I just want to make sure I am not somehow getting my kids sick.

[scabdraggr]

Thanks a bunch for your service.Your kids are likely infested with this life form if any symptoms have occurred recently.Please check my recent posts for treatment issues.We can help, here on MDR.If any questions please let us know.

[ItchInTex]

Yes, thank you for your service to the country.

Did your doctor diagnose you with Leishmaniasis?

The lesions from the two conditions look very similar. I'm wondering if there may be a potential connection between the two diseases.

[tcmgpt13]

Yes, there has been some speculation about a link between leishmaniasis and morgellons for some members here. Anyone who has served in the Middle East should be checked for this disease, to make sure it is not an issue before ever assuming that what they are seeing is Morgellons. There have been some here who have learned that leishmaniasis and other infections as well are part of their symptom picture. While it is not easy to transfer leishmaniasis to others through casual contact there has been some concern that it can be passed in utero or through other bodily fluids. Here is a thread I started about this disease:

morgellons-disease-research.com/Morgellons-Message-Board/parasites/4390-cutaneous-leishmaniasis-lesions-sand-flies-morgellons.html

This next post has a link to a page which lists military theater operations alphabetically by deployment name. Diseases to which you may have been exposed during your deployment should be found under each operation information. Every returning soldier should be handed the link to this deployment support military website found in this post, but probably isn't:

morgellons-disease-research.com/Morgellons-Message-Board/morgellons-syndrome/7303-military-disease-morgellons-2.html#post77953 (permalink 11)

Some online information about leishmaniasis and what has happened to some military and military dependents who were exposed to leishmaniasis. This website does not appear to have updated information.

leishmaniasis.us/

[skylark99]

Hi,

Well, yes, MilitaryguyfromMs, I believe there IS a link to that region, and also as one ex-service member from SE Asia will tell you from that area as well.
From a family member who trained in the medic corps and served in DS, I know that that basic included description of this illness, how to recognize it and that the cause and treatment were unknown. That was in the 80's.... so this has been known since before then, and known by senior service members.
Medics also understand NTK and follow orders like everyone else.

I have written back and forth with other DS and MidEast (ME) soldiers, who also report these symptoms that began while in DS and onward, and whose family members have had symptoms begin since their tour was over and they came home. (I want to stress that not all family members of those who have written me, have developed symptoms).

Some of these men and women have gone for testing; and no results told them. Many have been given steroids, scabies and lice treatments and various antibiotics or ointments, none of which worked. As a last resort, meds for depression are used, but fail to relieve the physical symptoms. I did have one soldier who served in the first Iraq conflict tell me that he saw that the VA hospitals were full of it, including the staff; he also said that they did not have a clue about what it is.
One man was told by his CO "not to bring any sand back in his gear, because that is where it comes from". This is why all vehicles and equipment is disinfected before and after it is brought back. Heavy pesticides are used. It was speculated, but not proven, that sand flies may have something to do with it. This does not fit with the 'Nam vets who state that they got it in SE Asia; there is no sand there, and no sand flies that I am aware of.

In my experience bleach does little to get rid of it; pinesol is a better choice.
I would definitely recommend using Pinesol as a household cleaner and laundry additive.

I use (past & present) something here in the UK called Dettol Liquid, which contains pine oil, and which is used as a skin disinfectant, and for dandruff, and in the laundry and for general cleaning purposes. Dettol contains pine oil, castor oil, isopropy alcohol, caustic soda, caramel and water, and 4.8% Chloroxylenol.

You may wish to compare the Dettol ingredients with a brand of pine sol or similar in the US, to see if you feel confident about using it yourself or for your kids as a skin disinfectant. I do not feel confident about plunking kids in baths of this, (either Dettol or pinesol) however (sorry Sd) --their skin is very porous, they are sensitive to strong solutions, and kids react to chemicals differently. I think it reasonable that we adults make choices about what we use, but when it comes to kids, I think the rules are different. That's just my opinion. But I wouldn't have a problem using Dettol for kids according to the label directions.

Dettol has no cautionary statements about using it as a skin disinfectant regards to children. It does however, state that it should not be used for eczema. But it can, according to the label, be used for cuts, scrapes, bites and insect stings.

If you want a bottle of it, I will gladly send you one. Send me a private message about the address you want it sent to, doesn't have to be your address, if you prefer. No great shake.

The recommended way to use Dettol as a skin disinfectant:

Wound cleansing - Wash affected area with 1 large spoonful of Dettol diluted in 1/2 pint (1 cup) water. Cover with gauze.
Dandruff - 1 tablespoon Dettol to 2 cups warm water. Pour over scalp, leave for 10 minutes before shampooing.
Pimples - 1 tablespoon of Dettol in 1 cup f warm water; bathe affected area daily.

You just want to know if you are getting your kids sick. Some kids of returning vets get it, some don't, so I have been told. No one knows why. No one knows if it is contagious.
It is a nearly universal concern that we might give this to our kids or grand kids.
But so many people have it now, that it is probably in many places, and may not be unavoidable from just about anywhere --that is, IF it is contagious.

A period of stress or stressful events commonly precedes symptoms, so avoiding stress is important. So is good diet, not neurotically so, but lots of vegetables and juices and whole foods. And enough sleep, major important.

[scabdraggr]

I'm with you Sky.especially where it comes to children.We know pinesol works,mostly from the pine oil but the other ingredients may be a little harsh for a child.possibly and it's good to have an alternative for children.Let's just make certain that it does it's job with the residual material from M.Hey Sky,have you noticed the huge number of posters for today and it isn't over with.Great day for discussions especially after the let down from the CDC.

[skylark99]

That's true, Sd, children are very sensitive. People with compromised immune systems can be too. And as far as that goes, did you know that anyone who has liver damage is especially sensitive to ammonia and may experience toxicity from it, even in small amounts?

As you mention, there are a lot of posts today, despite this lack of helpful information in the CDC report.

As always, I see many new names and members on the message boards in recent weeks.

[tcmgpt13]

There is a new heat treatment being used on the battlefield to treat cutaneous leishmania lesions which is discussed in another thread I started. I do not know if veterans can get access to this treatment but it might be something to look into for speedier recovery if at all available. The VA has done some testing of these devices on skin cancer. It sounds very promising, especially if the disease symptoms are more cutaneous lesions rather than the visceral form of the disease:

morgellons-disease-research.com/Morgellons-Message-Board/medical-news/7314-new-parasite-heat-treatment-treatment-device-used-soldiers-leishmania-lesions.html#post78112

Quote=skylark99: 'This does not fit with the 'Nam vets who state that they got it in SE Asia; there is no sand there, and no sand flies that I am aware of.'

Actually there are sbeaches in Southeast Asia, some of which are in Vietnam itself. Even if soldiers were/are not stationed where there are beaches no doubt some visited them when on leave or R and R as it was called (rest and relaxation). Thailand was a favored spot to shop and relax and there are plenty of beaches there with sandflies too. No doubt some encountered the diseases these parasites can transmit.

Some comments found on a forum about Vietnam and sandflies:

'yes, it was on koh jum but ive also had a bad experience with sandflies on the northern beaches on the west coast of phuket, also in malaysian borneo, and on phu quoc island in south vietnam, takes ages to heal too.' LIVING IN NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE, ENGLAND

The sand fly has more than one species and no doubt there are also other insect vectors of leishmaniasis which are as yet unknown, as the study of parasites seems to be pretty much in its infancy.

From wiki: 'Sandfly (or sand fly) is a colloquial name for any species or genus of flying, biting, blood-sucking Dipteran encountered in sandy areas. In the United States, sandfly may refer to certain horse flies that are also known as "greenheads" (family Tabanidae), or to members of the family Ceratopogonidae, also known in Florida and elsewhere as a sand gnat, sandflea, no-see-um (no-see-em, noseeum), granny nipper, chitra, punkie, or punky. Outside the United States, sandfly may refer to members of the subfamily Phlebotominae within the Psychodidae. Biting midges are sometimes incorrectly referred to as sand flies. Biting midges, also known as no-see-ums (no-see-em, noseeum), are insects that belong to a different biological group and should not be confused with the sandflies.

While horse flies are large flies, noseeums (sandfleas) and some Old-World sandflies are tiny midges. Sandfly bites may leave large, red itchy bumps that may turn into a rash. These bumps are frequently several times as itchy as mosquito bites, and tend to last longer as well.

In the various sorts of sandfly only the female is responsible for biting and sucking the blood of mammals, reptiles and birds. She requires the protein in the blood to make her eggs.

Some sandfly genera of the Phlebotominae subfamily are the primary vectors of leishmaniasis and pappataci fever; both diseases are confusingly referred to as sandfly fever. In the New World, leishmaniasis is spread by sand flies of the genus Lutzomyia; in the Old World, the disease is spread by sandflies of the genus Phlebotomus. Belize and Honduras are notorious in the Caribbean for their sandfly populations and travel pages frequently warn tourists to bring bug spray containing high concentrations of DEET.'

BTW not sure what anyone hopes dettol/pinesol will do other than clean the environment? It will not treat the Trypanosomatid protozoa which causes this disease and its symptoms. Also if sand flies are a concern then other controls will have to be used.

[hurtin1]

Cedar oil can be used as a topical,,,but the most I have found for the pine oil is a "cut" or additive for concentrated Neem oil..
The Pine oil will help mask the pungent odor of the neem.....

I mix about 1/5 pine oil to 4/5 concentrated neem,(hardware store),for house cleaning and such.

The pine has a little too much turpantine in it,,but the cedar,,I have found is not near as strong,,and has some other good qualities to it,,not found in the pine....

Two different trees.................

[tcmgpt13]

Okay, hurtin1, that is interesting about the essential oils, but I still ask how any of that going to treat leishmaniasis itself in any way which will slow it down or cure it? This disease for some, just like Morgellons, is a very serious illness. If essential oils, dettol or pinesol (that one is not suggested to use on skin) cured skin symptoms for those with leishmaniasis I am sure it would be well known by now. Also these oils are known to cause allergic reactions in some. Both cedar and pine are something that I have problems with. The cedar I learned bothered me when we had one in the house for Christmas one year. The pine oil was in a shampoo which I failed to test prior to using. Itching beyond belief was the result for my scalp.