Inflammation Immune Cell Switch Discovered

[tcmgpt13]

Well, if you could explain it I would love to hear your views, as if there is a difference between these concepts I would love to know how you understand that. For one thing most of the information we Americans have is based on texts written by other Americans. I know that Bob does read Chinese though I am not sure if he can read the Chinese found in older texts. It seems to me that some of the categories in that quote I posted from his article do cover more than just worms, as herbs moving chi and blood or spirit calmers would not necessarily be used only with those patients who have parasites. Does that make sense? From what I can find the old Chinese physicians did not really have much of a separate concept of parasites anyway, but did have a concept of the conditions found in the body when someone has parasites as well as methods to treat the condition of the body. Malaria evidently is one of the few definite parasite allusions found in the older texts from what I understand in my so far limited research.

Originally Posted by jeanlong

Worms and gu are two different things. There are herb medicines to expel worms. Those are different from the treatments to expel gu-toxins. It is one of those things like trying to explain the meaning of jing or shen for the first time. Not so easy to do.

[jeanlong]

Spirit calming means the shen is disturbed. If so this creates problems like insomnia and erratic irritability.

The old texts talk specifically about different worms. There are special foods, diets and herbs for helping the system get rid of worms. The worms are definitely parasites in modern language. There were a number of different worms that were written about and they have been observed. Additionally a good result of the old and new combined is that modern research has confirmed that all (not some, but ALL) of the expel-worm-TCM-herbs ("antihelmentic") have been confirmed in lab research to paralyze the worms or help the body to make them go out. They go out through different places depending on the type of worm. Parasite treatment is a specialty. Some of the those antihelmentic TCM herbs are banned by the FDA. As always, the strongest herbs poison the worms for sure but can also poison the person. Why people say that herbs are natural and don't injure the body is beyond me. More than half the herb training I had was to ensure the new TCM doctor does not make the patient more toxic.

If I figure out how to describe gu, I will post it on my website and let you know where to read it. The way gu problems start is from premature tonification treatment. When people have certain health problems they are tired. The fatigue is a natural reaction to the condition (pathogen, toxic condition, fever, etc) and the treatment has to include getting rid of the heat or toxic condition with the person resting. After that is resolved then tonic herbs or tonification acupuncture is given to bring up the energy level. But if tonic stuff is done too early it traps the toxin or pathogen in the system. Difficult - about how to explain the rest of it, well not too sure, because it is like a map with paths, in my mind's eye but describing it is not something I know how to describe. Yet.

Originally Posted by tcmgpt13

Well, if you could explain it I would love to hear your views, as if there is a difference between these concepts I would love to know how you understand that. For one thing most of the information we Americans have is based on texts written by other Americans. I know that Bob does read Chinese though I am not sure if he can read the Chinese found in older texts. It seems to me that some of the categories in that quote I posted from his article do cover more than just worms, as herbs moving chi and blood or spirit calmers would not necessarily be used only with those patients who have parasites. Does that make sense? From what I can find the old Chinese physicians did not really have much of a separate concept of parasites anyway, but did have a concept of the conditions found in the body when someone has parasites as well as methods to treat the condition of the body. Malaria evidently is one of the few definite parasite allusions found in the older texts from what I understand in my so far limited research.

[tcmgpt13]

I will be very interested to read your interpretation of gu sometime in the future as it appears there are many views of various subjects, including this one, in TCM. This is especially true when a whole system of medicine is based on texts that are thousands of years old. And it is not a static system of thought any more than is Western medicine or herbalism. I kind of think of the gu as the dampness of all types that is spoken of so often in TCM, especially as bacteria, viruses and parasites love dampness. The practitioner where I am would sometimes call it trapped old nutrition. He did not like the excessive use of vitamins for this reason. He felt that when you have cancer the extra nutrition feeds the cancer cells, but again that was his view.

I have read about some of the more dangerous wormers in the three books I have on the lectures of Jiao Shu-De, a lecturer in modern China who one publisher described as a national treasure. Unfortunately these lectures do not discuss only parasites. So the information, while interesting, does not always identify what works on what specific worm. Do you know of any books in English which discuss specific parasites and herbal treatments for them according to TCM thought? I would be very interested in obtaining such a book. Redwing does not seem to have one, at least not one I can find. Anyway I agree that natural does not always mean without any risk which is why when it comes to the more dangerous herbal treatments one needs an expert in this field as with any other.

I am now reading a page on google books, a brief discussion of parasites and the TCM herbs used in some instances. There is a discussion of how when parasites get into the blood stream sometimes coptis and goldenseal are used to treat them. Now I should be totally well if that were enough. So I am sure even in the blood stream the right herbs for the right parasite would be essential. I have tried myrrh in larger doses as suggested to treat schistosomas as well as those artesmisias used for malaria, not to mention a lot of South American herbs for parasites. Here's the pages I was just reading, for those interested:

Alternative medicine: the definitive ... - Google Books

Anyway, since I can understand how, as you said, the treatment of parasites would require a practitioner who specializes in TCM treatments for parasites just as in Western medicine we would need to seek out specialists to treat this to obtain any help (not that there are any with open minds that we know about which is yet another story). Maybe a group trip to China to consult the experts could be thought about. Finding verified experts in China would ensure treatment was actually genuine and not made up to look like that. I have a feeling that we do not all have the same parasites. It would be necessary to identify them to treat them with the greatest success. That is pretty hard to do when you don't know what you are treating. This is just a daydream I have about arranging a group trip to China. I am not sure it would be affordable anyway, not given what is happening to the world right now and to the US specifically.

Originally Posted by jeanlong

Spirit calming means the shen is disturbed. If so this creates problems like insomnia and erratic irritability.

The old texts talk specifically about different worms. There are special foods, diets and herbs for helping the system get rid of worms. The worms are definitely parasites in modern language. There were a number of different worms that were written about and they have been observed. Additionally a good result of the old and new combined is that modern research has confirmed that all (not some, but ALL) of the expel-worm-TCM-herbs ("antihelmentic") have been confirmed in lab research to paralyze the worms or help the body to make them go out. They go out through different places depending on the type of worm. Parasite treatment is a specialty. Some of the those antihelmentic TCM herbs are banned by the FDA. As always, the strongest herbs poison the worms for sure but can also poison the person. Why people say that herbs are natural and don't injure the body is beyond me. More than half the herb training I had was to ensure the new TCM doctor does not make the patient more toxic.

If I figure out how to describe gu, I will post it on my website and let you know where to read it. The way gu problems start is from premature tonification treatment. When people have certain health problems they are tired. The fatigue is a natural reaction to the condition (pathogen, toxic condition, fever, etc) and the treatment has to include getting rid of the heat or toxic condition with the person resting. After that is resolved then tonic herbs or tonification acupuncture is given to bring up the energy level. But if tonic stuff is done too early it traps the toxin or pathogen in the system. Difficult - about how to explain the rest of it, well not too sure, because it is like a map with paths, in my mind's eye but describing it is not something I know how to describe. Yet.

[tcmgpt13]

This practitioner breaks down gu syndrome into two types: one involving the brain and thus more likely to be a hard to treat microbial infection (like viruses and fungi) and the other digestive gu which is more likely to involve larger as well as smaller parasites. Too bad morgellons does not have the "gu" label as the name as that would describe it perfectly in English as far as sound since this illness involves a whole lot of goo. Sorry, more bad puns. Our symptoms seem to encompass both types of gu syndrome, at least as described by this author. Of course we would have to get an even more knotty disease by having both types of gu symptoms. Not sure why this fellow thinks that worms are more easily diagnosed as I do not think this is true. Anyway, another person's viewpoint regarding gu syndrome:

Heiner Fruehauf

Q: And Gu is mentioned in various classical texts?

HF: Gu syndrome has not just been mentioned in a single classic, but every notable book by every master in the past generally featured a chapter on Gu syn- drome, because it was such a major part of what a Chinese doctor practicing anywhere between 500 BC and the 1940’s was facing. We should add here that Gu is not an anthropological phenomenon, a bizarre dis- ease in the swamps of ancient China that does not exist anymore. Quite the contrary–due to the decreased im- munity in modern people, because of the way we eat and the way we move our bodies, and the way many of us were given antibiotics as kids, the average mod- ern city dweller is actually much more susceptible to parasitic organisms than Chinese villagers in the past. The clinical concept of Gu, therefore, is actually more useful now than it’s been in the past. According to my own experience, it is a most prominent disease. In my own clinic, for instance, about a quarter of patients are treated for the chronic inflammatory syndrome that I believe the ancient Chinese called Gu syn- drome—whether it is travelers’ diseases like malaria and Dengue fever, or whether it is chronic recognized viruses such as AIDS or herpes. When the associated anxiety and depression and physical symptoms that come with Gu are brought into the calculus, you have covered a good many patients. And we can’t leave out the complicated digestive disorders associated with chronic blastocystis hominis, giardia or other proto- zoan organisms. It is perfectly safe and reasonable to treat all these patients using the Gu approach outlined in my article, particularly if you fail to make headway with other methods. In other words: If you encounter a patient with bizarre symptoms that puzzle the doc- tors and don’t fit TCM regular categories, go with Gu syndrome.

Q: Would you say that you would always find at least a history of parasitic infection, even if the patient cur- rently tests negative for parasites on biomedical tests?

HF: At the bottom of Gu syndrome, and we see this in the symbol as I described earlier, is always a kind of pathogen. A worm is more easily discovered, but very often it is the small things that are most potent and remain hidden in the dark. Remember that the Chi- nese called this a yin (dark/hidden) pathogen. Lyme disease is a good example; the spirochetal pathogen is very elusive and so small that it is hard to discover with modern methods of diagnosis. I have a lot of patients where their case history makes them a shoe- in—they’ve been to Nepal, or India, or Latin Ameri- ca; they had amoebic dysentery; they took Flagyl and since that time their health has never been good. That kind of case is as clear as it can get, but there are lots of people who never left the country, and they can’t re- member any kind of initial infection, but all of a sud- den they’ve become chronically fatigued or have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. Their doctors put them on Prozac because they don’t know what else to do, when actually they’ve likely picked up some parasite in a restaurant or had a tick bite that they never knew about. This category of parasites includes the widest possible range, including viruses such as herpes or the Coxsackie virus, chronic systemic yeast, and so on.

Q: Heiner, you have just mentioned two types of Gu patients, a Brain Gu patient and a digestive gu patient. Can you take a moment to clearly differentiate them by discussing common symptoms?

HF: Yes, the two big Gu types: Brain Gu and Diges- tive Gu. People who have chronic digestive system symptoms are referred to as digestive Gu. In the mild- est case this will be bloating, gas, strange bowel move- ments like alternating diarrhea and constipation, or strangely shaped bowel movements. Along with these symptoms one will usually find chronic lethargy. A certain amount of brain fogginess or psychological symptoms like bad dreams can go with Digestive Gu as well.

Brain Gu syndrome is basically caused by chronic viruses that target the nervous system (such as cox- sackie, herpes, and in some cases HIV), or spirochetes (especially Lyme disease and its coinfections), or other exotic pathogens causing chronic forms of meningi- tis, malaria, leptospirosis, etc. A lot of patients in this category are diagnosed with fibromyalgia these days. There may be symptoms of body pain, anxiety, de- pression, headaches, eye aches, visual hallucinations, strange sensations that there is something stuck in their head, etc. Very often these people have been put on Prozac or some other kind of anti-depressant, which often doesn’t work. They might exhibit some digestive symptoms as well, and very often Brain Gu and Digestive Gu go together. The approach is simi- lar in many ways, but there are certain herbs that are more specific to spirochetes and viruses, and some herbs that are more specific for worms and protozoan parasites.

Q: In your experience do musculoskeletal issues typi- cally accompany Brain Gu?

HF: Yes, musculoskeletal issues are typical signs of Brain Gu. Digestive bloating, pain, and altered bowel movements are the primary signs of Digestive Gu. But both of them will have a certain degree of men- tal symptoms, therefore the “demonic possession” la- bel—the Digestive Gu less, and the Brain Gu more.

Q: What if there is an actual worm?

HF: There is a whole category of anthelmintic herbs that specifically have an anti-worm effect, including shijunzi, binglang, and guanzhong. Guanzhong, by the way, is also an excellent herb for chronic viruses, much better than the over-used banlangen. For me, it’s effect is very much like qinghao, without the more obvious shaoyang affinity of qinghao. The difference of worm affliction is that worms will often be expelled rather quickly, while spirochetes, viruses, protozoan para- sites and microplasma need to be treated for a long time.

This brings up a key difference between the Western and traditional Chinese approaches work- ing with parasites. It says clearly in the classical texts that the nature of Gu syndrome can be compared to oil seeping into flour.

This is much different from a pearl falling into flour—with a pearl you can just take tweezers and remove it, which is the idea behind the West- ern antibiotic approach. You blast somebody for a week with those, and theoretically the patho- gen is all gone. Similarly, is where you prescribe strong heat clearing herbs for amoebic dysentery and expect that it is all cleared up in one week. Gu is not like that. It is the oil that has got- ten into the flour, and now has virtually become one with the flour, and is thus hard to get back out. Even in the best case scenario this is a long process—the Gu manuals speak of a minimum of six months and a maximum of three to five years. This is definitely my own experience, as well. In sum, the only way you can get rid of this problem is by avoiding the custom- ary herbal approach of blasting the system with strong anti-parasitic herbs that are not tonic to the system and are hard to digest. Those will generally make the patient feel good for a week, but then s/he will not be able to stomach them afterwards. The brilliance of the Gu approach, once again, is that every single herb in the prescription is anti-pathogenic and tonic at the same time, and thus suitable for long-term treatment. Remember that this kind of patient will always need long-term treatment.

PDF files found here:

Gu Syndrome Interview: An In-depth Discussion with Heiner Fruehauf | ClassicalChineseMedicine.org

[jeanlong]

did not forget about this. trying to write something, but it will take some time. yes saw that webpage before....will be responding to some of other the threads too as time permits. having a bad eruption episode with stings, itches, bumps and M gunk popping out from my right arm. this is suffering. . . this infection/parasite problem. what could possibly be making roundish orange gunk and turquoise twisted knotted gunk? we ate out today. did this affect my system, or not? dunno.