msm for pain/depression much more!

[2manyfibers]

Hey LC – I have discussed MSM quite extensively in some of my posts. One thing to remember about the site you noted in your initial post here is that this is a company trying to sell MSM (thus, they have a somewhat “biased” opinion of MSM by definition). If you google “MSM DMSO” you’ll find several articles from medical and health websites that make it pretty clear that many of the health claims used by marketers of MSM are unproven and occasionally have no real basis in fact. I took MSM for many years and I am absolutely convinced that it was the main culprit that caused my particular problem of creating excess collagens and keratins in my body. MSM is basically sulfur (as is garlic which contains 33 natural compounds of sulfur). Based on my own experience and extensive research into it, it appears that the health benefits of MSM are mainly derived from the fact that sulfur is a key ingredient of collagens and keratins (see my post under the "Health, Well-being, Diet.." section on nutrients required for building collagens and keratins).

MSM is very closely related to DMSO and the MSM that is manufactured as a supplement is actually chemically derived from DMSO (DMSO is used as an industrial solvent (as is MSM) in addition to many other things including as a chemical “carrier” in some topical medical applications). The only difference between MSM and DMSO is the oxidation state of the sulfur atom that each molecule contains. DMSO used to be commonly used as a horse liniment. One problem with DMSO for human use was that it could immediately be tasted upon application to the skin (the solvent immediately entered the blood stream and the unpleasant taste is noted immediately). I can tell you from my own experience that MSM is not as safe as the marketers of it would have you believe. I would recommend that anyone using it over an extended period of time be very careful with it – despite the marketing hype, the body can get too much sulfur. There have been studies done on cows that show that too much sulfur in their diets cause brain lesions which cause death (this has not been shown in human studies though). Here are a couple of excerpts on the subject from my book:

Sulfur – Depending on who’s saying it, sulfur is the third or fourth most abundant substance on earth. That qualifies as abundant in my book (no pun intended). While sulfur has many derivatives, the “nutritional” sulfur used by the body can be found in small amounts in practically everything we eat, drink and even the air we breathe. Sulfur is the “base” ingredient for producing collagens and keratins in the human body (not unlike flour is to baking a cake). For sulfur to be converted to collagens, it has to be combined with vitamin C, and other minerals and amino acids. Likewise, for sulfur to be converted into keratins, it has to be combined with vitamin A and the other minerals and amino acids. Fruits, vegetables and anything else grown in the earth, contain small amounts of nutritional sulfur that are absorbed from the soil. Meats contain complex proteins, which contain high amounts of amino acids that naturally form sulfur in the human body. Some of these proteins are originally derived from sulfur (a cow eats lots of grass, hay and grain (which are all rich in sulfur) before it becomes a tasty NY strip steak – I knew there was a reason I like steaks and pork chops; it was actually an unconscious attempt to “eat healthy” by getting plenty of complex proteins in my diet). Garlic, onions and eggs contain a relatively high concentration of sulfur (garlic has the most natural sulfur – 33 different compounds of it). The sulfur consumed by cows (and other livestock) is converted by their bodies to sulfurous amino acids before we eat them. While sulfur is used in the formation of skin, joints, hair and other body parts, it is also required for the production of insulin in the body. Sulfur also is used by the body to produce other compounds that help maintain healthy “sugar” levels and assist in the metabolism of carbohydrates. Another benefit of sulfur is that it makes cell walls more permeable, allowing life sustaining substances in the body to pass through the cells more freely for maintaining our bodies, and for natural detoxification. Thus, sulfur is critically important to the human body (as well as other animals).

Sulfur is also found in small amounts in most liquids we drink. Milk contains a relatively high amount of sulfur while tea, sodas, fruit juices and even coffee has small amounts. If you’ve ever drank tap water or taken a hot shower in south Florida, the sometimes unpleasant taste and smell you may have experienced was the high content of sulfur in the water sources (unless you stayed in a particularly bad motel). Southern Florida (south of Tampa) has practically no usable “surface” sources like lakes and viable rivers, so municipal supplies are generally drawn from wells that contain lots of minerals including high levels of sulfur. While there may be more sulfur derivatives or harmful by-products in the atmosphere than “nutritional” sulfur, there are small amounts of it in the air we breathe. Processing and cooking foods is thought by some to destroy much of the nutritional value of sulfur in foods and liquids so a sure way to get enough is to use supplements. However, several of the amino acids in foods (including cooked meats like beef and pork) are rich in sulfur, and the body makes the sulfur it needs from these amino acids.

According to many nutritionists, the human body cannot get “too much” sulfur and many individuals don’t get all the sulfur they need through their diet. This idea is based on the fact that sulfur is water-soluble, which implies that the body will not store excess amounts and instead will eliminate any excess through urination. My first-hand experience directly contradicts the notion that the body can’t get too much sulfur; this will be explained fully in a later chapter. As dietary knowledge has increased over time, science has developed ways to derive “pure” nutritional sulfur from the abundant supply of raw sulfur available. One result is widely marketed today as MethylSulfonylMethane or more commonly known as MSM. MSM became commercially available in the late 1980’s as a nutritional supplement. MSM is closely related to DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) which used to be widely used as a horse liniment, but wasn’t generally considered to be “desirable” for human use. One problem with using DMSO for human consumption was that its chemical properties as a solvent created an unpleasant taste as soon as it was applied to the skin (it enters the blood stream immediately). DMSO (as well as MSM) is used as an industrial solvent and is derived from pine trees in many cases. By removing the suspect ingredients in DMSO, a more beneficial product was created in the form of MSM. As a general statement, very few people are allergic to this type of sulfur, even if they are allergic to sulfa (a sulfur based drug), sulfites or sulfates. When you think about it, you don’t see many people walking around without skin, hair or nails, even if they are allergic to many sulfur based products; and the body can’t create skin, hair or nails (or much of anything else) without “nutritional” sulfur.

Most MSM supplements available today are developed from pine trees and / or the world’s oceans. Apparently the stuff is everywhere you look in the ocean and much marine life has high concentrations of sulfur in their bodies (which contributes to large amounts of sulfur in the oceans). A major source for much of this natural sulfur is believed to be volcanic activity which is considered to be nearly continuous and quite commonplace on the ocean floor. Thus, for practical purposes, it seems that there is a never-ending supply available. It is also relatively inexpensive to harvest and refine, so MSM is commercially available at very reasonable prices. Most any store that carries vitamin supplements will also carry MSM. As with any other supplement, the purest natural forms of MSM are probably the best for human consumption.


The Current Medical Consensus is Simply Wrong Regarding Sulfur - One reason that this is not common knowledge is the fact that medical science is still under the mistaken impression that theoretically, the body cannot possibly absorb too much sulfur. Chemistry actually explains the fact that the human body can get too much sulfur if it is combined with the chemical catalysts (enzymes) and other nutrients needed for it to be converted to keratins and collagens. MSM was not available as a nutritional supplement until around 1988. Thus, prior to that time, there was no way for anyone to ingest such large amounts of sulfur as I did (in relative terms), especially on a daily basis (I believe other people that take this combination of supplements over a long period of time will eventually develop similar symptoms to mine). I generally took about 1,500 mg of sulfur in the form of MSM daily for about 12 years (500 mg tablets were available, but cost about the same as 1,500 mg tablets; since the body supposedly couldn’t “overdose” on it, I naturally opted for the 1,500 mg tablets). According to several doctors and nutritionists, 10,000 to 12,000 mg daily is not considered to be an excessive amount of MSM. As noted previously, toxicity studies for MSM concluded that the body eliminated any sulfur it didn’t need – these studies didn’t consider the rapid enzyme reactions that occur naturally when taking other nutrients in combination with MSM (specifically beta carotene, vitamin C, zinc and the corresponding amino acids / minerals that create keratins and collagens). In fact, most toxicity studies of any kind specifically instruct participants not to take any other substances of any kind (drugs or supplements) for the duration of the study. This methodology may determine the toxicity of a given substance itself, but simply fails to consider the reality of how people actually live their lives every day. My mistake was in not understanding the chemistry well enough before I took this combination of supplements for a prolonged period of time. However, I don’t blame myself entirely since the consensus of the medical community still seems to be that the body can’t get too much sulfur, period.


Remember that as part of the process of the sulfur and vitamins being converted into keratin and collagen, the chemicals were “inserted” into the bloodstream for distribution. Thus, these substances (including the sulfur, once converted to proteins) are no longer "water soluble" and cannot be eliminated through the urinary tract. Based on how the body works, I’m quite certain that my body used the raw materials to build collagens and keratins of all types, based on however my DNA would normally instruct this process; only my DNA had far more raw materials to work with than normal. I’m quite certain that my DNA produced the same general proportions of types it normally would, depending on the quantity of amino acids and minerals responsible for making each type (for instance more of the structural collagens than other types – the body normally needs, and produces more structural collagens than other types). These raw materials were no longer in the urinary or digestive tracts to be eliminated as waste. Eventually, the incredible pain and discomfort I was experiencing made me stop my intake of any additional supplements to determine if they were causing the problem – as it turned out, they were. Knowing and finally understanding what actually occurred in my body, it seems to me that if these substances can be properly regulated in the body, truly wonderful and amazing things could be achieved for humanity.

[tcmgpt13]

Bubba,

How are sulfa and sulfur related as far as allergies? I am allergic to sulfa too, but as I have understood it they are two different substances and an allergy to one does not necessarily mean an allergy to the other. So this is why I am asking, as maybe there is something I do not know about this subject. It could mean I should not retry this, especially after my experience with the parasite appearing in the gum. Not an allergic reaction I guess. I am curious about this though, so would appreciate your imput on the relationship and possible trouble with sulfur and msm if allergic to sulfa (I learned the hard way on the Atkins diet to stay away from jello--big time reactions and it was only then I learned that commercial food colorings are based on sulfa!).

Thanks. Always good to see you here.

best,

tcm

[2manyfibers]

Hey TCM - thought I would post this for you (even though I ain't bubba). It can be found in its entirety at:

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/sulfa.htm

SULFA DRUGS
One of the more common drug allergies is that to sulfa drugs. Sulfa drugs are more appropriately labeled sulfonamides and are derivatives of para-amino benzoic acid. The table below lists common medications that contain a sulfonamide component.

Sulfonamide drug classes/individual drugs that may cause allergic reactions
Sulfonamide Antibiotics
sulfadiazine
sulfamethoxazole
sulfasalazine
sulfisoxazole
sulfacetamide
sulfanilamide
sulfathiazole
sulfabenzamide Thiazide Diuretics
hydrochlorothiazide
chlorthiazide
metolazone
chlorthalidone
indapamide
methyclothiazide Loop Diuretics
furosemide Sulfonylureas
chlorpropamide
tolbutamide
tolazamide
glipizide
glyburide Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitors
acetazolamide

The sulfa drugs are usually not allergenic by themselves, but when a sulfonamide molecule is metabolized in the body, it is capable of attaching to proteins, thus forming a larger molecule that could serve as an allergen. Thus, the allergy is not to the original drug, but to a drug-protein complex. It is estimated that a skin rash occurs in about 3.5% of hospitalized patients receiving sulfonamides, but people with HIV infection seem to have a considerably higher sensitivity to them.

A sulfanomide (see sample structure, below) does contain sulfur, but the sulfur atoms are imbedded in a complex molecule. The sulfur atom is not the allergenic agent and being allergic to sulfa drugs does not imply having a propensity to allergy to other sulfur compounds. Rather, it is a unique property of this kind of compound, namely that it can form proteins that are allergenic in some individuals.

[kbubb]

Originally Posted by tcmgpt13

Bubba,

How are sulfa and sulfur related as far as allergies? I am allergic to sulfa too, but as I have understood it they are two different substances and an allergy to one does not necessarily mean an allergy to the other. So this is why I am asking, as maybe there is something I do not know about this subject. It could mean I should not retry this, especially after my experience with the parasite appearing in the gum. Not an allergic reaction I guess. I am curious about this though, so would appreciate your imput on the relationship and possible trouble with sulfur and msm if allergic to sulfa (I learned the hard way on the Atkins diet to stay away from jello--big time reactions and it was only then I learned that commercial food colorings are based on sulfa!).

Thanks. Always good to see you here.

best,

tcm

Hi tcm,

As 2many already mentioned, sulfur (S) is a natural chemical element. It is an essential part of life. Pure sulfur is not a compound. It is also not an allergen.

However, when sulfur is bonded with other elements it forms compounds. A common compound is sulfa (sulfonamide) (SO2NH). When some compounds are metabolized or broken down into simpler chemicals, the end result can cause an allergic reaction.

MSM (methyl-sulfonyl-methane) (C2H6O2S) is also a compound that must be metabolized in the same fashion. It is not pure sulfur…even though many of the mfgs would like you to think it is.

The allergic response that I had was most likely due to purity of the product and to the way my body metabolized the compound.

[ladycolorado]

thnaks for all the great info posted. so we have found out so far, that if use a product this pure, with the massive die off inside may try to acttack outside and in mouth ears eyes etc. so they have to be treated too. also for those allergic to sulphur, have to be careful with a product like this. now for those allergic to sulphur, look in this section for my posts on cod liver oil, have flavors i have link to lemon mint, so less yick for the sick. they have different flavors like lemon and orange too. it actually has similiar benefits, (LC).

[2manyfibers]

Hey LC – I felt the need to clarify your last post on this subject. Sulphur is an “old English” spelling for what is today known as sulfur. NOBODY is allergic to sulfur in its pure form as a chemical element (the chemical symbol for sulfur is “S”). If an individual was actually allergic to sulfur in and of itself (in its pure, elemental form) it would be physically impossible for such an individual to exist. The human body CANNOT exist without sulfur (the body would have no skin, no organs, no hair, no nails, etc. without the presence of pure, elemental sulfur). This is because the human body could not physically create the collagens or keratins that are by far the 2 most prevalent structural proteins that literally constitute the human body without the presence of pure, elemental sulfur.

What people can have an allergic reaction to is compounds of sulfur (MSM is a chemical compound that contains 2 carbon atoms, 6 hydrogen atoms, 2 oxygen atoms and 1 sulfur atom – thus, the chemical formula C2H6O2S). Sulfa (a sulfur compound also known as sulfonamide that can cause allergic reactions quite often) is a chemical compound that is made up of 1 sulfur atom, 2 oxygen atoms, 1 nitrogen atom and 1 hydrogen atom (thus, the chemical formula SO2NH). What people can have allergic reactions to are additional chemicals (impurities) that may be included as part of a given product (like binding agents, anti-caking agents or “fillers” used to make the product into a pill or similar form). They may also have some sort of allergic reaction to compounds created in the body by metabolizing (or breaking down these compounds into their individual chemical components) the additional chemical elements found in sulfur compounds (not the sulfur itself). In these cases a person’s DNA may cause the other elements in the sulfur compound (like hydrogen, oxygen or nitrogen) to bind to other proteins in the body such that they suffer an allergic reaction (or their bodies may "see" the result as an allergen where other's bodies do not).

[ladycolorado]

no 2many i am glad for the clarification thanks so much, me being an avaerage joe and all. i am glad you told me what happeed to you too intaking msm. this is good to kow. i know you have probably already talked about it, but from your theory standpoint, what is your opinion on what is good to intake to safely cut down the occurence of these keratins? i always love to read your posts (albeit just recently, sorry ) and would like to know more (LC). p.s. was posting a couple of natural things because some have written me regarding joint pain, so was trying to find some natural things to help. but really good this is being discussed showig all the positive and negative aspects of this supplement, 2many thanks for educating me.

[tcmgpt13]

Thanks 2mf and bubba, for your explanations about how sulfa and sulfur compounds work. I never knew that it was the attachment to a protein which caused an allergic response to sulfa. All I knew as a little kid was that I would swell up, have large blotches, swell all over and feel like death warmed over.

Once, when I was an adult I got an ear infection. Told the doctor all the drugs to which I was allergic. Used the ear drops he prescribed and the pain and swelling that ensued from that, wow! Called the pharmacist who upon hearing my questions (any antibiotics or sulfa in this?) said: why yes, there is sulfa in that (mind you this was in the days when pharmacies did not give the patient information about the drug he was using unless he called about it after a problem arose from using it). Some things have improved over time although many health care providers' acceptance of allergic reactions to drugs has not improved. I still get questioned--well, was it just that your stomach was upset? That is not an allergic reaction. So then you have to go into the whole litany of what happened to you during your reaction to a drug. No wonder I avoid doctors, even now with this problem. Maybe especially with this problem as the answer seems to be drugs to which I am allergic (I always say give me a mold based antibiotic long enough and I will probably develop an allergy to it, if not immediate over time).

BTW, off the subject of sulfa again, is the reaction to other antibiotics the same principle? Or is it the allergy to the mold contained in the drug that causes the problem? In my own case I did find out from one doctor's testing that I do not eliminate mold that well from my body, though I am not the worst case for that (only have two genes, not three or four).

Thanks all once again.

best,

tcm

[gumball]

hi 2manyfibers what a great post you sure know a lot i am learning so much here i am so greatful that everyone is sharing what they know it helps all of us to make better decisions for ourselves thanks a bunch for sharing gumball